View Poll Results: Should science extract the truth?

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  • Yes

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Thread: Confession of guilt by scientific methods

  1. #1 Confession of guilt by scientific methods 
    Valued Member fenderman's Avatar Great-Britain
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    Do you think convicted criminals/murderers should be subjected to truth serums and/or other methods to give vital information about their crime? An example being the Moors murderers Ian Brady and Myra Hindley refusing to tell where they buried the bodies of heir victims. Should this information have been extracted from them to help the victims relatives?
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  3. #2  
    Elder stvnsprngr's Avatar United-States
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    Good question.
    I'm gonna have to percolate...
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  4. #3  
    Supreme Member AngieBockel's Avatar Black-private
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    As it is impossible to get the truth (you only get what the convict believes to be the truth) and the human brain is extremely good at deceiving itself - no!
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  6. #4  
    VIP Member bobbyblob's Avatar
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    Administering truth serums to criminals or calling for the extermination of two-thirds of the world's population are ideas that do not lie in our immediate jurisdiction and are deliberately designed to provoke moral bankruptcy making our spiritual and physical decline all the more justified and imperative?
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  8. #5  
    Valued Member fenderman's Avatar Great-Britain
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    bobbyblob
    I am not calling for the extermination of the murderers, although I would not be against it, only the extraction of what I perceive vital information. They have violated the human rights of individuals by taking their life, cannot their rights be forfeited on those occasions for the extraction of the truth, or what they perceive it to be?
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  9. #6  
    Valued Member fenderman's Avatar Great-Britain
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    To be honest, we all know there will never be an honest politician. however this poll is not for the purpose of counting Winston Churchill's fingers, exterminating the worlds population (the governments will do this with nukes for us), only to get the consensus of opinion on whether convicted criminals should be made to give the vital information as in my original post (#1) for the purpose of others affected by their actions. One of the children tortured and murdered by Hindley and Brady died without knowing where her daughters body was buried, unable to give her a final farewell.
    Personally, I would get the information by any means at my disposal, but for the purpose of the poll I advocate 'humane' methods.

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    This post was in reply to a post that seem to have been deleted since
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  11. #7  
    Elder stvnsprngr's Avatar United-States
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    Huge caveat: As long as you've got the right person(s)...
    While the bloodlusty part of my nature says torture them before or after to find the victims, the more civilized part says once in prison, complete denial of any kind of humanitarian 'privileges' or treatment short of torture will eventually effect a cooperative frame of mind.
    ie.: solitary confinement, single bowl of rice for meals, no Family Feud etc..
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  12. #8  
    VIP Member bobbyblob's Avatar
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    Moors Murderer Myra Hindley begged to be hypnotised in the hope that she would disclose where victim Keith Bennett lay buried, official files have revealed.
    She said she hoped it would relieve Keith's mother of 'some of her grief' and allow police to close their file on the case.
    But the request was turned down by the then Home Secretary Douglas Hurd because he did not believe it would help.


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    I believe it would be of more value before the conclusion of the crime story that is unfolding. Such as in a kidnapping and the victim's life would be in grave danger or a person who has designed and made a bomb and placed it someplace to explode. I would not advocate only humane methods in this case....but as you say, "any means at my disposal" up to and including using the criminals family members or loved ones as leverage such as seen in the movie "Unthinkable".

    But as far a locating deceased victims and other crimes that has reached a conclusion....It wouldn't matter much to me. What's done is done and nothing can undue it. If one of my loved ones was the victim, they'd already be gone. I don't believe in a spirit walking around angry because their body wasn't in a proper spot or grave. If a scientific and humane method could be used to extract information after the fact....why not?
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  16. #10  
    Elder thepossum's Avatar Australia
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    perhaps in the movies ..........in real life no

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  18. #11  
    Valued Member fenderman's Avatar Great-Britain
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by sean126 Click here to enlarge
    I believe it would be of more value before the conclusion of the crime story that is unfolding. Such as in a kidnapping and the victim's life would be in grave danger or a person who has designed and made a bomb and placed it someplace to explode. I would not advocate only humane methods in this case....but as you say, "any means at my disposal" up to and including using the criminals family members or loved ones as leverage such as seen in the movie "Unthinkable".

    But as far a locating deceased victims and other crimes that has reached a conclusion....It wouldn't matter much to me. What's done is done and nothing can undue it. If one of my loved ones was the victim, they'd already be gone. I don't believe in a spirit walking around angry because their body wasn't in a proper spot or grave. If a scientific and humane method could be used to extract information after the fact....why not?
    It's not the spirit wandering around I was concerned with, more the torment to the parents that their child has just vanished and they are just without closure, see post #6
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  20. #12  
    Supreme Member GSXR's Avatar Great-Britain
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AngieBockel Click here to enlarge
    As it is impossible to get the truth (you only get what the convict believes to be the truth) and the human brain is extremely good at deceiving itself - no!

    that's called 'insanity'
    easily ruled out of a scientific extraction of facts.


    As long as there is the scientific development that would allow this.

    I see no problem as long as that means no torture as that could be nonsense...
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  22. #13  
    Member dcdete's Avatar Canada
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    Regarding your post #1. Should truth serums and or other methods be used on [already] convicted criminals.
    That has already been tried historically. In the Spanish Inquisition, they had the Rack, the Iron Maiden, Cat of Nine Tails and other scientific truth revealing machines. The only difference back then was they used the equipment on people before their trials, not just after the trial.
    However such inhumane practices where ruled out after [western] society became more educated and enlightened.
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  24. #14  
    Supreme Member AngieBockel's Avatar Black-private
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    @GSXR:

    I don't want to start an argumet about "sane" and "insane" but (your brain) deceiving yourself is "done" by everybody all the time - the "amount" defines the boundary of insanity...

    Ask your friends what someone wore at a party you all attended and you will get different answers.
    Not because they deliberately lie but because their memory was altered by itself.
    Nobody remembers everything perfectly - everybody unconciously(!!!) changes something. That is not insanity, that is human!
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  26. #15  
    Supreme Member GSXR's Avatar Great-Britain
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AngieBockel Click here to enlarge
    @GSXR:

    I don't want to start an argumet about "sane" and "insane" but (your brain) deceiving yourself is "done" by everybody all the time - the "amount" defines the boundary of insanity...

    Ask your friends what someone wore at a party you all attended and you will get different answers.
    Not because they deliberately lie but because their memory was altered by itself.
    Nobody remembers everything perfectly - everybody unconciously(!!!) changes something. That is not insanity, that is human!

    No you are talking about 'perception' people perceive things differently. but if there was a method of extracting what people actually 'see' NOT what they believe they saw that's completely different.

    If its completely different to the facts then that's bordering on insanity/schizophrenia.

    I seem to remember a film where they extracted images from a dead/murdered persons brain and they were able to see what the person saw before they died. I was thinking if that technology was available before a person died via a headset/scanner or something then yes the extraction of facts would be possible.

    Like you wrote, you would need to remove the 'perception' part as people see what they want to see sometimes....

    A select group of people would need to see it in the third person like it was a film strip/video clip. As we do CCTV....Video never lies lol...Click here to enlarge
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  28. #16  
    Supreme Member AngieBockel's Avatar Black-private
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by GSXR Click here to enlarge
    I seem to remember a film where they extracted images from a dead/murdered persons brain and they were able to see what the person saw before they died. I was thinking if that technology was available before a person died via a headset/scanner or something then yes the extraction of facts would be possible.
    That is not science but science fiction - one of the movies portraying something similar is "Minority Report" with Tom Cruise.

    The human brain does not record the reality, it "only" records the perception. About 90% of the "reality" we perceive is rightout discarded by the brain and the 10% remaining are more or less altered.

    So the premise of a "scientific method to extract the truth" is false.
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  30. #17  
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    Getting back to the OP's first post.......I think some are starting to steer off from the telling of what someone did to extracting subjective things. Getting me to tell you that I murdered someone or where I planted a bomb is entirely different from getting me to tell you how many times I stabbed someone or perhaps even where I buried someone years after the fact or even what my victim was wearing. I find it very hard to accept that someone's brain would fool them into to thinking they did not plant a bomb, they did not rape and murder a woman or they did not kidnap a child and they have them tied up in a box somewhere.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AngieBockel Click here to enlarge
    As it is impossible to get the truth (you only get what the convict believes to be the truth) and the human brain is extremely good at deceiving itself - no!
    I'm not following the line of logic in this particular instance. Yeah...I agree that witnessing something could fall into that, as I've experienced it on myself mere minutes after I told someone of something that I saw. I had inaccurately described what someone was wearing and their hair color, but I do not think I could deceive myself into thinking I did not kill someone, blow up a building, rob a store, kidnap someone...ect.. as you seem to be suggesting.


    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AngieBockel Click here to enlarge
    So the premise of a "scientific method to extract the truth" is false.
    People are subjected to numerous different scientific methods all the time by law enforcement, lawyers, parents, spouses, friends, employers...."people" in general....to get the truth out of someone. Numerous ways are implemented. Numerous ways work. Everyone has a breaking point...the trick is to find that breaking point with the right strategy. Fear of death, fear of pain, fear of jail, fear of punishment, fear of someone you love being hurt or killed, feelings of guilt....the list goes on and on.
    I'm sorry for offending you by calling you an idiot. I thought you already knew.
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  32. #18  
    One billion dollars RS-MMC's Avatar UK
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    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AngieBockel Click here to enlarge
    That is not science but science fiction - one of the movies portraying something similar is "Minority Report" with Tom Cruise.
    Minority Report is about a backed up precognition. Three precogs are linked up to a machine that have visions of a possible turnout of events surrounding murder. A minority report is a different turnout of events -- if one of the precogs predict a different future. Those are deleted so not to bring in doubt during the trial, hence minority report (you're tried and convicted during the investigation).

    The closest, I can think of, is probably Barb Wire. There was a single scene in which they extracted the last thoughts of a perp. They turned out to be of Barb Wire, and that was used to to enforce someones agenda. Closest after that is probably Cold Lazarus (TV mini-series), The Cell, then Identity.

    You could argue this enforces your point about perception.

    Click here to enlarge Originally Posted by AngieBockel Click here to enlarge
    So the premise of a "scientific method to extract the truth" is false.
    Your premise is flawed; you're arguing because perception is perceived to be different, then logically anything is possible -- basically a form of quantum mechanics covering perception. You could argue you (or anyone else on this topic) committed ten murders today. Thou, for whatever reasons, you didn't perceive, don't remember, or your brain is lying to you regarding this event.

    There maybe differences -- varying to a huge extent from person to person -- however, excluding those classified to unfit to stand trial, there isn't going to be a great deal of difference when you break it down to the basics. You're crossing over into psychopathy.
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  34. #19  
    Supreme Member GSXR's Avatar Great-Britain
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    I remember a film although today its classed as science fiction but the world was flat once and anything else would have been classed as science fiction. Bit like one day religion will be classed as all fiction.

    Anyway the film was 'Source Code' a project that puts someone in another person's consciousness during the last few minutes of their life.

    If this became a possibility in the distant future then YES it is possible to 'see' the crime take place as an observer.

    In that instance the proof is there and irrefutable indisputable incontrovertible undeniable proof.
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  35. #20  
    Valued Member Smee777's Avatar Black-private
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    Truth serums, etc.? Maybe it would be possible with a much deeper understanding of the human brain, improved modern medical scanners, more drugs testing and a lot of time. But I doubt it. Its been tried before by the CIA, the program was called 'mk ultra' and it was a failure.
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  36. #21  
    Valued Member fenderman's Avatar Great-Britain
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    In post #1 I did state convicted criminals/murderers . a perception of what they think they did is not what they actually did. If I was to burn down my neighbours shed, it would be hard for me to convince myself that I repainted it for them.
    12-year-old Keith Bennett was murdered by Brady and Hindley, Keith's mum, Winnie Johnson, died without the comfort of giving her son a proper burial due to their refusal to state where he is hidden. Now that is one good reason I support compulsory knowledge extraction.
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  38. #22  
    Devoted User frosty57's Avatar Australia
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    This is very subjective and as you read the posts many people understand in the right context it should be done, but to solve mistaneaners then it shouldn't be

    Could you image we would have no body willing to be politicians any more and the criminals would go underground
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